Miss at Idle

Dr.Evil

Addicted to Boost
This problem has been getting progressively worse with time. With 91 Octane, I can hear and feel a pretty bad miss-fire every couple seconds. With 100 octane its barley noticeable/non-existent. The following is new:

MSD Cap/Rotor/Coil
Black Beauty Wire
OEM Plugs
All Vac lines replaced
EGR block off plate
Fuel Injectors
Cleaned upper/lower intake manifold
Set timing to right around 0* advanced w/ tan wire unplugged
TDC checked and confirmed good
Compression good (145-150 in all 6)
13-14" vac at idle (at 4500 Ft, so 15-16 at sea level)

What could it be and why is it getting progressively worse? Its almost to a point where I don't want to drive it (well If I even could, its getting fixed after being hit) Any ideas would be great.

Thanks
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Miss at Idle

Well it certainly sounds like you covered your bases. There's a few more "shots in the dark" you can try. There is a pink and white wire going from the ignition coil to the distributor ignition module that has been known to go bad and you can replace it for about $15 from GM. If you search for perhaps, "pink wire ignition" you might find it on here. Otherwise a dealer parts counter may be able to find it.

But before you do that, I'll offer the idea that you could try replacing your Ignition Module, it sits below the distributor rotor, like a small black electric box.

Have you tried datalogging the vehicle? Maybe under load or cruise, other issues would show up on the datalog to suggest it's more than just an idle miss?

The last thing you could try is swapping distributors, maybe your "rotor magnet" is cracked (I don't know the right word but it's the rusty pointy magnet thing you see when you remove the plastic rotor). Hopefully you have a stock distributor now, I have heard from some people such as WindedV6 that the MSD Billet distributor has on occasion gone bad and caused random increases to spark advance...
 

Dr.Evil

Addicted to Boost
Re: Miss at Idle

I forgot to add above that I have changed the ignition module.

The truck fires right up when its cold, almost instant. It runs good at a cruse, just misses pretty bad at idle.

Here is a datamaster run, first is with regular gas, second is with 100 octane, let me know what you think:


Stock Chip, 91 Octane

Stock Chip, 100 Octane

I have since adjusted the TV cable and it shifts harder and later than it used to, but thats all I messed with.

Another thought...I ran 10 gals of leaded (mixed 50/50 with 91) through it, could the O2 be bad after that little bit of lead? I would think it would throw a code if it was, and it still missed before the 110, just not as bad.
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Miss at Idle

UPDATE: I read up on the history of your posts here and it was enlightening. A lot of my advice is duplicate effort so I'm editing my post to take out the stuff you've already tried. If it doesnt make 100% sense that's because I removed some parts. I'll put my updates in bold.

Boy I'm not sure what to say about your idle. It does seem to run really rich at idle (and still rich at WOT). The way your old posts talked about smelling like unburnt gas and running rich, I think it's likely you have an honest misfire where it's not firing. Why? I have no idea. But at least we have a suspect of the problem. I cant beleive it runs so good at WOT. Do your headlights dim at idle or have low alternator output or something? Do you have bad engine grounds perhaps?

Other things I noticed:

1.) Your tranny is shifting WAY too early!! Thats a cool problem to have. Didn't you mention this problem in another thread? Man it seems tough to have a truck shift too early, usually they shift too high and its a lot harder to bring it down. Has your tranny been rebuilt? It almost shifts like it's got a diesel governor in it. Your 1-2 is 4175 and your 2-3 is 3850. Going into 3rd your converter (stock I assume) is hitting minimum WOT stall of 3000 and just flatlines. So you're definitely leaving some performance on the table. Changing governors is NOT easy (IMO) but it is possible to do in an afternoon. It's just messy and tough to do on your back and that cover can be a real bitch to pry off and reinstall without marring your tranny case and busting/denting the cover. I wonder if you have a real SyTy stock governor.. How about this, if you find you have a non-SyTy governor I'll pay you $25 for it plus shipping? I've got the opposite problem and could use a lower shifting governor.

2.) Your boost control definitely sucks, it looks just like mine did on the stock control. Don't dive into this now, but once you get everything else squared away I'd recommend you try a manual boost control valve set for 14 PSI or whatever you feel your engine can tolerate (less, if its on that shitty 91 octane gas). It will spool up faster and hold the boost CONSISTENT compared to the roller coaster it's doing now. I use the $38 one from www.boostvalve.com. After looking at your other Datamaster files, I can almost promise you, you'll never get good boost control with the electronic control. You might as well buy a BoostValve now and never look back. I wasted a lot of time chasing my tail with that and the Boost Valve was like a silver bullet cure. Just be careful to NOT set it higher than what your octane can handle, or you'll blow your engine for SURE. In other words if the stock chip runs 14 PSI don't set it higher than that when using the stock chip becuase with the Boost Valve you take control into your own hands and even if the engine is knocking and crying for help, it cannot lower the boost anymore.

3.) Oh, that 91 octane gas. BOY DOES IT SUCK!!! Your getting a shitload of knock from that garbage, as much as 9*. Is your timing at 0*? If I were you I might try retarding the dist 1-2* as a crude attempt to thwart the knock.

4.) On the bright side, your 100 Octane sample is BEAUTIFUL!! You've got FLAT LINE 0 knock, consider yourself very lucky as that is something lots of SyTys are chasing elusively!! I spent 3 YEARS chasing that and still haven't achieved what you're seeing. Once you get everything sorted out, your truck oughta be a SCREAMER at WOT, having zero false knock like this!

5.) I just had an idea; make sure you've got the correct spark plugs. I apologize in advance if you've already mentioned this and I missed it. I would try the NGK UR5 plug at .030" Gap. They seem to idle the best (yes, better than the CR42TS). They tend to come pretty close to .030-.035" gap right outta the box. They may also reduce your knock at WOT on the 91 octane.

6.) Your RPM looks smooth and correct at WOT, I would tend to believe your ignition is 100% up to par. It seems unlikely (but possible I suppose) that your ignition works perfectly at WOT under load but misfires at idle?

7.) I just wanted to say one more time that I really cant beleive the 91 octane is ACTUALLY THAT BAD, I knew it was bad. But MAN. :tdown: If it were me I would honestly look at moving out of California!! Talk about a hot-rod crutch to have! Well except for the fact that alcohol injection is available... :D

8.) What did you mean in your old posts when you wrote "Yea, I got a brand new MSD 3Bar chip directly from Summit." What is an MSD 3Bar chip? Summit doesn't really sell anything for the Syclone/Typhoons?

9.) I think your truck is missing at idle in the true sense (spark plug periodically not firing) and I would try to focus on that because it may be causing some of your other issues as well. I guess my reply doesnt solve your problem but I hope it gives you some ideas. I am sure your's is a frustrating situation to be in.
 
Last edited:

Dr.Evil

Addicted to Boost
Re: Miss at Idle

TookyCat said:
UPDATE: I read up on the history of your posts here and it was enlightening. A lot of my advice is duplicate effort so I'm editing my post to take out the stuff you've already tried. If it doesnt make 100% sense that's because I removed some parts. I'll put my updates in bold.

Boy I'm not sure what to say about your idle. It does seem to run really rich at idle (and still rich at WOT). The way your old posts talked about smelling like unburnt gas and running rich, I think it's likely you have an honest misfire where it's not firing. Why? I have no idea. But at least we have a suspect of the problem. I cant beleive it runs so good at WOT. Do your headlights dim at idle or have low alternator output or something? Do you have bad engine grounds perhaps?

Other things I noticed:

1.) Your tranny is shifting WAY too early!! Thats a cool problem to have. Didn't you mention this problem in another thread? Man it seems tough to have a truck shift too early, usually they shift too high and its a lot harder to bring it down. Has your tranny been rebuilt? It almost shifts like it's got a diesel governor in it. Your 1-2 is 4175 and your 2-3 is 3850. Going into 3rd your converter (stock I assume) is hitting minimum WOT stall of 3000 and just flatlines. So you're definitely leaving some performance on the table. Changing governors is NOT easy (IMO) but it is possible to do in an afternoon. It's just messy and tough to do on your back and that cover can be a real bitch to pry off and reinstall without marring your tranny case and busting/denting the cover. I wonder if you have a real SyTy stock governor.. How about this, if you find you have a non-SyTy governor I'll pay you $25 for it plus shipping? I've got the opposite problem and could use a lower shifting governor.

2.) Your boost control definitely sucks, it looks just like mine did on the stock control. Don't dive into this now, but once you get everything else squared away I'd recommend you try a manual boost control valve set for 14 PSI or whatever you feel your engine can tolerate (less, if its on that shitty 91 octane gas). It will spool up faster and hold the boost CONSISTENT compared to the roller coaster it's doing now. I use the $38 one from www.boostvalve.com. After looking at your other Datamaster files, I can almost promise you, you'll never get good boost control with the electronic control. You might as well buy a BoostValve now and never look back. I wasted a lot of time chasing my tail with that and the Boost Valve was like a silver bullet cure. Just be careful to NOT set it higher than what your octane can handle, or you'll blow your engine for SURE. In other words if the stock chip runs 14 PSI don't set it higher than that when using the stock chip becuase with the Boost Valve you take control into your own hands and even if the engine is knocking and crying for help, it cannot lower the boost anymore.

3.) Oh, that 91 octane gas. BOY DOES IT SUCK!!! Your getting a shitload of knock from that garbage, as much as 9*. Is your timing at 0*? If I were you I might try retarding the dist 1-2* as a crude attempt to thwart the knock.

4.) On the bright side, your 100 Octane sample is BEAUTIFUL!! You've got FLAT LINE 0 knock, consider yourself very lucky as that is something lots of SyTys are chasing elusively!! I spent 3 YEARS chasing that and still haven't achieved what you're seeing. Once you get everything sorted out, your truck oughta be a SCREAMER at WOT, having zero false knock like this!

5.) I just had an idea; make sure you've got the correct spark plugs. I apologize in advance if you've already mentioned this and I missed it. I would try the NGK UR5 plug at .030" Gap. They seem to idle the best (yes, better than the CR42TS). They tend to come pretty close to .030-.035" gap right outta the box. They may also reduce your knock at WOT on the 91 octane.

6.) Your RPM looks smooth and correct at WOT, I would tend to believe your ignition is 100% up to par. It seems unlikely (but possible I suppose) that your ignition works perfectly at WOT under load but misfires at idle?

7.) I just wanted to say one more time that I really cant beleive the 91 octane is ACTUALLY THAT BAD, I knew it was bad. But MAN. :tdown: If it were me I would honestly look at moving out of California!! Talk about a hot-rod crutch to have! Well except for the fact that alcohol injection is available... :D

8.) What did you mean in your old posts when you wrote "Yea, I got a brand new MSD 3Bar chip directly from Summit." What is an MSD 3Bar chip? Summit doesn't really sell anything for the Syclone/Typhoons?

9.) I think your truck is missing at idle in the true sense (spark plug periodically not firing) and I would try to focus on that because it may be causing some of your other issues as well. I guess my reply doesnt solve your problem but I hope it gives you some ideas. I am sure your's is a frustrating situation to be in.



Thanks for taking the time to post that up.

Right now the truck has the stock chip & 2Bar sensor. With the ultimate and 3Bar, it just amplifies the problem.

Here is the link to the 3Bar that summit sells, same as what detroitturbo.com sells.

3Bar MSD

I have the factory CR42TS plugs in it now. I had the UR5 and swaped over to the CR42TS as something to try. Didn't make a difference.

The truck runs like a raped ape in California with the 100 octane. Its scary fast off the line. Even with the 91 it runs better down there, but still has a miss at idle.

Are my intake temps okay? I think my lower CCHE might be old and have some build-up in it, preventing it from cooling properly. I would think that would come into play at anything but and idle.

The boost control is not that bad now, apparently I didn't mash the gas hard enough for it to register 100% throttle. When its cool outside, it pulls 15PSI on the stock chip and holds it pretty well.

Has anyone had any problems with the Black Beauty plug wires? I have a set of summit wires I might throw on to try.

Any other ideas would be great.

Thanks!
 

Tooky

Serious about performance
Re: Miss at Idle

Dr.Evil said:
Here is the link to the 3Bar that summit sells, same as what detroitturbo.com sells.

3Bar MSD
Ah I see the confusion now. You had mentioned "I got a brand new MSD 3Bar chip directly from Summit". When in fact it was a 3 Bar MAP Sensor and not a chip. Gotcha.

Are my intake temps okay? I think my lower CCHE might be old and have some build-up in it, preventing it from cooling properly. I would think that would come into play at anything but and idle.
Your intake temps looked OK to me.

The boost control is not that bad now, apparently I didn't mash the gas hard enough for it to register 100% throttle. When its cool outside, it pulls 15PSI on the stock chip and holds it pretty well.
Trust me, you may find it acceptable, but I promise from looking at your Datamaster there is a large improvement possible by achieving what registers as a "flat line 15 PSI boost" instead of the "roller coaster 15 PSI boost" on your current Datamaster. Whether or not you want to extract all possible performance is up to you..

As for the idle miss. If it were me, I'd try to get an engine expert to look at it in person, someone with some real detailed troubleshooting skills. You've covered all the basics, it is possible it's something that's been overlooked, but I'm out of ideas.. There's still that distributor swap I suggested.. Good luck,

Josh
 

SY2455

70's Veteran
Re: Miss at Idle

Have you done the intertube check to see if the intake is leaking? With the stock chip my truck had a miss at idle and I only got rid of it when I installed a MSD 6A on the truck.
 

Dr.Evil

Addicted to Boost
Re: Miss at Idle

SY2455 said:
Have you done the intertube check to see if the intake is leaking? With the stock chip my truck had a miss at idle and I only got rid of it when I installed a MSD 6A on the truck.

Yes, the intake only leaks a bit from the throttle butterfly shaft on the TB.

I forgot to mention above, the transmission has been replaced or rebuilt! I found the reciept when I got it. I am willing to bet that it is not set up to Sy/Ty specs.

Does anyone have the procedure to check/change the governors as listed below? I have had more than one person mention that the tranny might be an issue. But that doesn't solve the rough idle...
 

SY2455

70's Veteran
Re: Miss at Idle

Dr.Evil said:
Does anyone have the procedure to check/change the governors as listed below? I have had more than one person mention that the tranny might be an issue. But that doesn't solve the rough idle...

If you do a search on it you will find it, I had it at one time, but loss it after checking mine out.The one you want has it listed two ways. (1st- MPH at each gear change at light throttle,I think it was 20% throttle) (2nd- Listed the gear change RPM at 100% throttle) I sorry I don't recall who posted it,but it was one of the better known people here.
 

sy2185

New member
Re: Miss at Idle

I second that throttle body shaft idea. I just had San Diego carb&f.i. rebuild mine and my idle is now dead on@625-650rpm, I don't lean misfire when at the smog test station, gas mileage went up 20%, boost control leaved out completely(vac. leak@idle is a boost leak under pressure) and my vacuum@idle and IAC munbers on dm came into spec. Driveability is so much better and that along with running 2ga.from my alt. to a 100amp fuse and power block under ctr. console then to ecm for both constant on and a relay to ign. on,adding grd. strap from alt. case to the frame turned what was already a pretty stout more than decently built truck into a rocket. My smc controller's set %50 higher than before and switched to a .15 nozzle instead of the old .10. Volts on DM went from a low of 11.7@redline/wot to 14.1 always despite never being below a 13.8 on DMM through cig. lighter. Plus my volt guage on the dash doesn't go up and down w/the turn indicators like it used to, lights/ac on or not.
Sprasy some carb clean at your TB shaft and check for a change in idle. the side load on the TB shaft and cable attachment are severe. Have you ever tried pulling the TV cable by hand? Easy to see why the steel shaft so often wears on the aluminum body.
Just like the guy at the corvette shop said(same TB)there should be no vac. leak @TB shaft. esp. on a forced induction vehicle. that leak could cause un controlled boost spikes b/c with no MAF sensor the engine just calculates air flow by estimating air flow in a formula based on TPS,boost,inj. dc, inj. p/w and so many other sensors. This boost leak is nearly as dangerous as a cracked head or definetely as bad as a leaky upper or lower intake b/c it's downstream so to speak of all the sensors that ecm uses to calculate it's only unknown value, air flow. And that's 1 of the 2 parameters needed to check and tune toi a specific AFR.
Sorry to ramble, I only post maybe 6 times a year now, plus I've been at a bbq all day and am pretty drunk. or maybr it's sunstroke. My god!I'm fukin' burned. damn is it hot in here.
Take my advice, it's come from 6 years of sy/ty cursing, 4 seriously. Good luck.

Go Fast, stay low.
Jeremy
SY2185
619.920.4077 anytime. can talk faster than type.
 

Dr.Evil

Addicted to Boost
Re: Miss at Idle

Well I figured I would bring this back up as it still is missing at idle. A couple things I have noticed:

Its not the typical SyTy bouncy idle. I can feel the engine miss and see it in the tach.

It only does it when it is hot, and the hotter it is, the worse it is. At night when the air is cool, I barley notice it.

I put in a new aluminum CCHE and hi-flow pump, didn't seem to help much.

Datamaster doesn't show anything either. I will post up a file once I get a new one recorded.

Any other ideas?
 
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