Wicked Rich Idle

coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
I need some help getting this thing tuned properly for idle. I get a headache just sitting in it for a few mins cause its so rich.

Engine is freshly built, still has break in oil in it. I'm running a TT chip for 80lb injectors and have a scanmasterG to help me along. I've posted on FB last week and Hood mentioned ground post on intake. I checked that out, and no issues there. Last night I dropped the ECM down and checked all the grounds for it. All were great; ohm down to 0.

I've also changed out the map sensor, no change. I've got a new WB and it seems to work great too. I've also tested unplugging the map sensor. Seems a bit better actually....still a little rich though, but better. I've also tested with the coolant sensor unplugged....that still seemed rich though.

I know I had this issue prior to the engine rebuild on the old radar chip...I guess I was hoping it would just magically go away.

I have tunerpro logs that I'd be happy to send too.
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

What are the WB readings? The later style TT chip has an idle mixture setting. Have you changed that at all? Pull the chip adapter and make sure your connections are not damaged in some way. Make sure the chip carrier is fully seated when you reinstall. The "lock" levers should fit over the board. Unlikely but check that TT chip itself in installed correctly. Notch in chip matches notch in carrier.

What's your fuel pressure? Does it hold when you run the pump without starting? IE pos stuck inj. What is your IAC reading/count? Should be fairly close to 30. TPS should show 0.

You do have a 3-bar MAP sensor installed right?:roll:

Stock there are two grounds. Back of drivers head and front of intake drivers side.
 
coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

WB is about 14.6 - 14.7
I have not changed the idle set screw on the chip at all, so that's factory right in the middle
Fuel pressure is set to 44 psi with truck off. Holds nice and steady, no fluctuation.
IAC holds steady at 31
TPS shows 0% and .65 volts
3 Bar Map sensor is installed.

I'll take a look at the chip install but I remember putting it in and it seated properly.
The two grounds on the back of the head I was able to check as well, not loose or anything, I pulled the ECM plug and tested those grounds too. Ohm right down to 0.

Thanks for the help
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

14.6 is close to correct for an idle. +/- Take the inner-cooler off and run with just the TB.

How is the actual idle just to listen to?

I only use DataMaster but does Tunerpro show manifold pres in inches HG? A normal idle for me is 18" absolute. IOW what is your manifold pressure reading at idle?

Gasoline or E85?

Is the WB wired into the ECM? Correctly? WB only or both o2 sensors? If the WB is wired into the ECM the TT chip can be told to use it instead of the narrow band. dip sw 4 I think.

Might also write Eric and make sure he's set your chip correctly for your setup.

Late timing might be an issue. Have you checked that?
 
IGottaSy

IGottaSy

Active member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

Correct me if I'm wrong but...
It takes more than idling the truck for the ECM to more accurate learn fuels curves. In addition, it has to cycle on and off a few times without loss of power for the learning to fill in the appropriate cells.

In utter words, if all is good then drive it around and cycle your ignition key a couple of times on/off
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

You're probably correct but I've never experienced it. Worth a shot for sure. I'm suspicious that it was there before on a different chip. One wonders if something else is wrong. Is there a CAT? If so maybe that's plugged.
 
coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

Don W. said:
14.6 is close to correct for an idle. +/- Take the inner-cooler off and run with just the TB.

How is the actual idle just to listen to?

I only use DataMaster but does Tunerpro show manifold pres in inches HG? A normal idle for me is 18" absolute. IOW what is your manifold pressure reading at idle?

Gasoline or E85?

Is the WB wired into the ECM? Correctly? WB only or both o2 sensors? If the WB is wired into the ECM the TT chip can be told to use it instead of the narrow band. dip sw 4 I think.

Might also write Eric and make sure he's set your chip correctly for your setup.

Late timing might be an issue. Have you checked that?
Click to expand...

I've been running the truck without the intercooler connected simply because I need a bracket welded to hold it in place. ATR headers and sheetmetal valve covers don't work with factory brackets.

Listening to the engine, it idles eh, ok, not super smooth, but not rough either. Not sure how to describe that better.

TunerPro doesn't seem to have a reading for HG. I have an Innovative boost controller gauge that displays vacuum. Its digital but I would say its somewhere between 15 and 16''. I do have a 412 cam in it, but I think that's close to where it should be.

The Ty is on 93 octane

The WB is wired into the ECM as instructed in the TurboTweak instructions. WB only. No NB. Dip switch 4 for NB simulation is set to on.

I e-mailed Eric too...sent him the TP files so he could take a peek. Hoping he might have some insight as well.

For a test I set dip switch #2 for open loop idle. That did exactly that....but interestingly enough, the A/F idled around 17. It still was running rich though, you could really smell it.
 
coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

I had e-mailed Eric with my files and he was able to give quite a bit of insight. From the logs he noted that the ecm was doing everything correct. From my analysis this takes out several questionable situations.

With his response, I now know I'm not looking for a vacuum leak. He verified MAP reading to be well within range. He also answered my questions on BLM; the ECU is guided by the O2 sensor and to keep a good target AFR its adding fuel. This makes sense because if I set the chip to run open loop the wide band shows lean, but still stinks like raw fuel.

Having those questions answered and knowing that it just wreaks of raw gas, I'm now on to ignition. Stuck injector is possible....but not likely....their brand new.

Here's the deal, if there is raw gas, it means its unburnt fuel. Unburnt fuel is not read by an O2 sensor. It also enables the fuel to be leaked into the oil, making your oil smell like gas, and my fresh oil does indeed smell like gas.

I got to thinking, what in the ignition system could be left over from before the rebuild....."spark plug wires". I think I've literally replaced everything from the firewall forward accept them. I inspected the wires and there were several cuts in the insulation of the wires up near the distributor. The cuts were caused by a possum that crawled into the engine bay to make a home before I rebuilt the engine...if I really think about it, thats when it started to smell like gas...one of the reasons I decided to rebuild too. The other old thing left is the coil...but not going to replace that right now.

Ordered up a set of magnacor's for a v6. I have to make my own because of the headers. Most I've ever spent on wires but if it solves this issue I'll be very thankful.

Plan is to make the wires, install them, probably change out the plugs, change out the oil and filter and give her another go.
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

Magnacor's are good wires. I and others have had good luck with them. Sounds weird I know but I could tell the moment I started it with the new wires things were gonna be better. To late now I guess but they will make any length with any end. Saves the hassle of installing your own ends.
 
coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

Finally received the Magnacor's and installed the ends on em for the distributor. I have a hydraulic crimp tool that works great on that stuff. Changed out the plugs, gapped to about .28 and changed the oil and filter too. oil really did smell like gas With those done I cranked her up and drove around a bit. When I got back I let it idle and was still getting BLMs about 144. Wife says it still stinks like gas. Not sure what's up. This issue is driving me nuts.

I'll data log it tomorrow and see if I notice anything. Might drive it around a bit more too. I'll see if it still spits black gas deposits as well.

Only thing not changed out at this point is the coil and with everything looking so nice in the engine compartment it might be worth it to change that out regardless.
 
coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

Since I still had some suspisions about the raw gas after the plug wires I went for a bit of a drive. Seems to go just okay. Brakes up a little, and a little hesitant on tip in. Like its miss firing or something. I changed out the coil too, that seemed to help a little as well. Cleaned up idle just a bit and is a hair better at moving into gear.

I had thought there might be an issue with the catalytic converter so I pulled it out. I found out the cat is fake. Its just a straight pipe made to look like theres a cat. My guess is one of the previous owners lived in a state with inspections. So I'll need to put that back in.

I wasn't able to get tuner pro to connect with the scanmaster again. I went through some uninstall reinstalls etc. of the bluetooth device. No dice. I'll probably try uninstalling and reinstalling tuner pro again. Maybe that will help. It seems to be super finicky about connecting even when I can clearly see its bluetooth device is connected to the machine. Really wishing I went stand alone right now :rant:

I'm going to go get a/c filled up this week, cause I can't stand just the windows down. Its so friggin hot here.
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

IACs "should" be around 30. Assuming the seal on the throttle stop adjustment screw is long since gone try adjusting it. With it thoroughly warmed up, in neutral, back the screw out no more than 1/2 turn. Bump the throttle to make sure it's closed and re-check IAC. Then go from there. Note, the screw works backwards to the reading. Turn to the right lowers the reading. Left increases the reading. You haven't mentioned, or I missed it, the type of TT chip you have. If you have the one that is adjustable for idle and WOT where are they set? Nominal is 8, half way. WOT has a minor effect on the entire range not just WOT. Also have you checked the parameters? There are 7. Accessed through you Tunerpro with engine off. If any of those have been fooled with the should probably be returned to "nominal" which is 128 for 1,2,3, & 4 and 100 for 5,6,7. This should be checked before you go much further. If any of the first 4 are way off note where they are and return them to 0. IF YOU'VE REMOVED POWER, as in disconnect the bat, then they will all automatically return to nominal. Except idle and WOT of course. So when you get around making changes be sure to keep notes. This also forces a re-learn of the ECM which I find to be fairly quick. I don't know the exact procedure though.

HTH
 
coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

Hey Don, thank for your continued help here. I got some answers:
IAC - all warmed up I have it right at 29 now. This seems to change dependent on the day and how bad the gas smell is. I feel like I'm not going to get it real consistent until after this issue is resolved.
For the TT chip I have Eric's newest one so it does have idle and WOT settings on the chip. Mine are right in the middle(8). Again, didn't want to move these till the truck is more consistent.
For the settings, I didn't set any of them, I did go ahead and pull the power (disconnected battery) just to be sure everything was default.

I had a friend drive the truck last night while I connected to the scanmaster with the laptop. Things were not good. The truck miss-fired a bunch and back-fired a few times too. On the logs I lost my recording thanks to Billy Gates rebooting for some update in the middle of my run. I reconnected after and things were still a miss. Here's what I recall:
BLMs about 144
Wideband showed lean at idle (16.5) Computer and scanmaster showed 14.5 at idle. Why the disparity...no idea. If it was a wiring issue wouldn't the computer show nothing? Seems strange. That problem has been off and on since I first hooked this thing up. Innovate boost controller gauge with wide band. Chip is set for it. Very strange issue.
Temp on the truck is perfect. Runs right around 170

I was wondering if this could be a fuel pump issue, but not sure that really explains the miss-firing and back-firing. I would expect more surging and hard starts instead.
My friend said he felt like it was ignition. He's leaning to the distributor. I changed out the dizzy as part of the rebuild, granted it may not be the best quality, but it is new. Not sure how to tell that that IS this issue.

For fuel pump, I think I'll go rent a fuel pressure gauge again and this time set the FP at idle instead of with truck off.

Thanks for any help.
 
Don W.

Don W.

Stab it and steer it
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

The "correct" way to set fuel pres is with the with motor running and vac line off. You could, just as a test, lower it and see what happens. IAC at 29 is prolly close enough. That should help a bit with tip-in. After it's warmed up and idled a bit and smelling bad pull the plugs. Looking for one or more that show wet with gas. If so which ones? Do you, by chance, have access to a different ECM? Try that. FWIW I accidentally toasted my ECM awhile back. Bought a rebuilt from NAPA. Hate to tell you to throw parts at it but the truck -did- run better than it did with the old ECM. Right at $100.00. What WB sensor do you have? Is it old? The new Bosch sensor is a better design. If you have no NB installed you're gonna have to have sw 4 on. Weird question: On the newer PLX WB you can tell it what fuel you're running. Can you do that with yours? If so is it set to gasoline? It is strange that you see two different readings. I would go by the actual gauge. A backfire is often a timing issue. Might want to re-check that. I'm just throwing stuff out there. HTH
 
coupecustom

coupecustom

Member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

Went to rent a fuel pressure tester today and the dang thing leaked. So I returned it. I'm going to just buy my own on Amazon to do the fuel test. After that gets here I'll test the pressure and try lowering as you suggested.

On the old plugs there were all equally black (wet with gas), I suspect these plugs would be the same if I run it much longer without making another change.

I don't have a different ecm, would be nice to try, I agree. Might save that for last. Try and get some of these other tests out of the way.

Let me ask. On the distributor ICM, I'm simply running the one that came with the distributor, I wish I saved the one from my factory original but I didn't. Should I get an AC delco original equipment replacement? I've read another post that says to do this, but didn't see what the affects were for not changing it.

The wideband that I have is an Innovate SCG-1. Its a boost controller and wideband in one. It does have a setting for fuel type. Default is gasoline and I have not changed it. I don't have a NB sensor in, so it is simulated from the wideband and dip switch 4 is on.

Your mention of timing (and I agree) is what made me think of the ICM....that and my friend who mentioned the possibility of the issue being the distributor.

I think I may have a couple of issues going on here. Its just trying to eliminate one at a time to get down to route cause. I really thought the spark plug wires was the fix, I know the old ones were bad and thought new ones were going to be the end all fix. O well, back to more troubleshooting.
 
Brianawd

Brianawd

New member
Re: Wicked Rich Idle

What wide band do you have? Is the wideband gauge moving?
Is the wideband in turner pro stuck at 14.5 or is cycling?
 
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