Best bleeder valve setup for ext. wastegate?

[GEN3Typhoon]

Will, the one that I have from Turbonetics says it is for in cab. I use it under the hood.

I have no experience with it and quite honestly did not want to mess with running the pipes inside. I have two settings on mine.. with the old turbo they were 1 and a half turns apart. Not a big deal to adjust outside the truck.

There was one that I saw that had two setting with bleeders. I think it is that XSone that someone got.

I think most people are using the manuals ones and dealing with the underhood adjustment because the boost control is so crisp and they are just plain cheap.

 

[smeagol]

FWIW, many Buick guys run regulators in cab, not sure how finicky about control they are though. I ran it that way on my TTA, and the control seems good so far. I haven't done much testing on it, so I can't say for sure.

 

[SYTYNUT]

Will & Tim,

I've had EXTREMELY good success on my Sy in terms of boost control and accurate boost adj w/the Turbonetics manual boost controllers; HKS EVC (discontinued but can be found used on Ebay); and Innovative Turbo Systems boost controller (my current setup). I've had no issue runnin vac lines in cab too. I've run these controllers w/Racegates, HKS WG's, and Tials.

HTH's.

8) :lol: :wink:

 

[THEMADTYPH00N]

Has anyone tried Ramchargers Boost Command? I hear its pretty good.

 

[Will_in_China]

Great info guys, thanks.

I think I will "guinea pig" an official test of a "recommended in-cab" for consistent boost management and feed back to the family...

-Will

 

[Will_in_China]

I THINK I FOUND IT!!!!! BUT EXPENSIVE!!!!

I THINK I FOUND IT!!!!! BUT EXPENSIVE!!!!

Lookie what I found!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hallman Boost Controller Evolution $150

Hallman's newest creation, in cockpit boost control with manual boost controller reliability.

We can also offer "Evolution upgrades" to add the cable adjustment system onto any version of Hallman MBC.

http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/boostparts.shtml

 

[0-60N4]

I'm a distributor for the Boostvalves but I have not tested them on my Ty. I use the dual port setup with an air regulator to an external wastegate like Brian mentioned.

I picked up the Boostvalve line for the Honda turbo Aquatrax (jetski) and they work great. The air regulators did not work on the Aquatrax for some reason. (someone figure that one out)

Some people have had sucess on Syclones and Typhoons but I know some with non-stock set ups have had trouble with them for some reason. (see below)

Scott Bowen (In-Tune Performance) loves them and has been getting several from me to install on some of the exotic turbo cars he works on. He says they work better than anything he has ever used.

They are pressure relief (pop-off) valves and not bleader valves. The spring in them is rated for 0-20 psi but I found it works better if you stretch the spring a little and try to make it more like a 10 - 30 psi spring. Thay may have been what some of the SyTy applications needed.

If anyone wants to try one, they are only $29.00 and I'll buy them back if they don't work for you.

 

[Will_in_China]

They are pressure relief (pop-off) valves and not bleader valves. The spring in them is rated for 0-20 psi but I found it works better if you stretch the spring a little and try to make it more like a 10 - 30 psi spring. Thay may have been what some of the SyTy applications needed.

How does the pop-off effect work?
That would seem to be much more effective at providing tip-in boost response.
Photos?

What does the range imply?
20 or 30 being relief of pressure correct?
But what is the lower bounded figure for?

Interesting Jim, I didn't know of anything but "Bleeders".
I just bought an ATR a few months back and haven't even unwrapped it (waiting for next season).

-Will

 

[Maverick87]

Will
Dont unwrap it . It wont work any better out of the wraping than it does in it. Get the regulater and forget atr.

 

[0-60N4]

The way the pop-off works compared to a bleeder is no air escapes the valve until the set point is reached. That means the wastegate stays fully closed for maximum spool up until the set point is reached. When the set point is reached, ( the boost pressure has overcome the resistance of the spring) the valve opens to activate the wastegate. The valve stays open until boost pressure drops below the set point.

The spring pusses a check ball against the valve port to keep it closed. The pressure is adjustable by screwing the control knob in or out. With the knob turned full out, the valve will open with very little pressure (almost zero). With the knob turned full in, the valve will stay closed to approx. 20 psi per the rating. (I've seen it open at around 18 psi). If you stretch the spring, it will have more resistance at all positions so it will take a little more pressure to open it whether the knob is full out or full in.

For SyTy applications, 10 - 30 would be optimum for the spring.

 

[Ian Turgeon]

pic:
http://sytyarchives.com/gallery/tech/aad


My issue with the innovative and this valve: inconsistant and slow pressure build past base boost (base boost relies purely on the wg itself).

I think this was due to the fact that the spring would occilate in the valve.

I was told by a friend that he had a similar problem when using the boost source on the compressor housing. I will test it using a source off the manifold as *in theory* the spring loaded check valve would be method of choice for quick spool up.

 

[Will_in_China]

What makes it pop instead of bleed here?

The way the ball seats?

It just seems like it would bleed like anyhthing else.

Oh, and thanks for the input on the ATR.
Will be patient about not opening it until I figure out what to do here...

-Will

 

[InvisiBill]

What makes it pop instead of bleed here?

The way the ball seats?

It just seems like it would bleed like anyhthing else.

Oh, and thanks for the input on the ATR.
Will be patient about not opening it until I figure out what to do here...

-Will

My understanding (which may very well be nowhere near reality) is that a bleeder valve adds a leak to the system. It simply loses some of the pressure before the wastegate sees it. You might be getting 18psi, but because of the bleeding, the wastegate sees it as only 15psi, so it stays there.

http://www.hallmanboostcontroller.com/faq.html

Q: Is your boost controller a bleeder valve?

A: No. A bleeder valve type controller creates a leak in the line running to the wastegate. The larger the leak the more boost you get, but the larger the leak the more turbo lag you will get as well. Our kit blocks the signal before the wastegate until the internal spring pressure of the valve is overcome. At this point the signal can reach the wastegate and open it. Since the internal spring pressure is adjustable, you can increase boost. Since there is no leak with this system the turbo will spool as quick as it can for its size.

With the BoostValve (a.k.a. Grainger valve), either the pressure is less than the spring so the valve stays closed, or the pressure is greater than the spring and the valve opens. It's simpy on/off at that boost level, determined by how tight the spring is screwed down.

http://syty.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11896
http://www.streetracer.org/dsmtech/

Christian mentions that he uses his valve only for spoolup, not boost control. He does this by setting the boost valve lower than whatever his boost controller is set to. He mentions not having tried it with the stock solenoid, but it seems like you'd just set it up inline before whatever device you have modifying the boost "signal" to your wastegate actuator, stock or aftermarket.

For example, set it for 13psi and put it before the stock solenoid. At 12psi, your solenoid is seeing 0psi, and so keeps the wastegate closed. Once you hit 13psi and overcome the spring pressure, the pressure flows to the solenoid, which can then act as normal.

Christian also mentioned using the manifold source instead of the compressor, as the vacuum helps to reseat the ball in the valve. I think it was BG that mentioned that you might have problems if you use the BoostValve the "right" way to replace the stock solenoid. As I stated above, it's either on or off, and our wastegate is just too small to control the turbo once it's already at 15psi and suddenly the valve opens up.

 

[Will_in_China]

I will have to check my wastegate duty cycle on tip-in and part throttle to verify this...

WAY cool principle though.
How have I been missing this?

Where are people picking up the manifold pressure, mechanically?
Please don't say the map sensor...
Thanks.
:wink:

-Will

 

[InvisiBill]

You mean the manifold source, as opposed to the compressor housing? Just T into the front vac line before any check valves...

Also FYI, that Evolution thingy is a BoostValve, with a "remote screw" thing stuck on it. It's the exact same thing, but you can adjust it with the cable from the cab instead of having it get in the engine bay and turn the screw... I noticed that the FAQ question I posted was from that same line of products...

 

[Will_in_China]

Cool on the front of the manifold, I didn't know if that would screw up the rest of the vacuum pressures, etc...
Thanks.

Is there a DIY list for said in-cab boostvalve?
Sounds like you may have built one...

-Will

 

[InvisiBill]

Nope, I've never even touched a BoostValve. =) Just done lots of reading... But looking at their site, you can see their regular "controller" is the exact same thing as the BoostValve. You can even buy the in-cab adjuster cable thingy separately for $85, though I don't know how well it would work with a non-Hallman boostvalve. They do have some neat stuff available, like a lighter ceramic ball instead of steel for finer tuning.

http://www.hallmanboostcontroller.com/applic.html

 

[Will_in_China]

Yeah, I had read that site previously, the dsm page had it cheaper, I was just wondering if any DIY'ers did some "ACE Hardware"ing of this type...

-Will

 

[bdubb]

Rich Eartly had/has a regulator ran into his cab of his typhoon. and he had no problem change boost on a fly, and reacted very quickly to knob changes.